When a fellow believer shares his or her story with you, what grabs  your attention? Are there certain themes you listen for? Are there  commonalities amidst the diversity and complexity of our individual  stories, experiences that we share and that map on to a basic framework  of understanding? I’m glad to welcome you as a listener to this podcast.  I’m Mike Emlet, counselor and faculty member at the Christian  Counseling and Educational Foundation, CCEF. In conjunction with the  release of my new book, Saints, Sufferers, and Sinners: Loving Others As  God Loves Us, you’re about to hear a new podcast series during which  I’ll interview several of my colleagues at CCEF.

During these conversations, we’ll explore the intersection of three  struggles common to each of us as believers in Christ. The first is the  struggle to ground our foundational identity in our relationship with  Jesus Christ. “Who am I really” and “How do I live each day in light of  that identity” is a question we find ourselves revisiting often as  believers. What does it truly mean to live as a daughter or son of our  Heavenly Father, a saint who is secure in Christ? The second is the  struggle with suffering. We all wrestle with various hardships and  afflictions, whether they arise from bodily weakness, relationships, or  the situational challenges of life, whether they be traffic jams,  financial hardships, or pandemics. How do we draw near to God who is an  ever present help in times of trouble? How do we help others do that?

Third is the struggle with sin. We all wrestle with the evil that  dwells within our hearts and our erupts in words and deeds that harm  others and ourselves. How do we reckon with the fact that as the Apostle  Paul says, when I want to do good, evil is right there with me? How  does God help us grow in holiness? Moreover, how do we speak wisely and  winsomely to those mired in sin? As Christians, we share the experience  of simultaneously being saints, sufferers, and sinners. Knowing one  another and loving one another well requires that we attend to these  three foundational experiences. So join me now in listening to stories  from saints, sufferers, and sinners.

In the final installment of this podcast series, I’m honored to spend  time with Dave Casey. Dave has been the staff accountant at CCEF for  around seven years. He is married to his wife Stacia and they have a  five-year-old son and two dogs. Dave has an MA in theological studies.  In his spare time he likes to tinker around his somewhat dated house  trying to fix things as long as it’s not too big of a project. He like  others of us in Philadelphia likes the Eagles and Sixers although he  considers himself a bit of a fair weather fan tuning out when the teams  start to tank. Yes, such is the life cycle of the Philadelphia sports  fan. Dave enjoys books by John Grisham and his favorite Christian author  is Eugene Peterson. Before becoming a father he played a lot of  basketball but now he switched to running and hiking.

As always I want to highlight a few things to listen for in our  conversation. The preaching of the word was instrumental for Dave’s  growth in Christ. We’ve spent a lot of time talking in the podcast about  how prayer and personal intake of God’s word as well as conversations  with other believers are critical for our lives as saints, sufferers and  sinners but we need to remember just how foundational corporate worship  is for our journey as believers in Christ.

Dave also speaks very honestly of the gap that exists between  theological knowledge and practical living. And that would be a good  question to ask yourself at the conclusion of the podcast, “Where do I  see those gaps in my life?” Tied to this, Dave talks about how important  it was for him that his pastors were transparent about their own  struggles and at the same time he cautions us about being enamored by  the latest and greatest pastor or theologian but rather to be enamored  by Jesus. No one but Jesus can be Jesus for us.

And then lastly, this was really encouraging to me, Dave talks about  how the strain and isolation of the pandemic along with his wife’s  military deployment have led to the painful but liberating experience of  being brought to the end of himself, learning to live as a finite human  being with only so much control over his life. As he puts it, the rough  edges of his life are being sanded away in the midst of God meeting him  in his suffering.

Mike:

Dave, I’m really thankful for the opportunity to talk together today  and just hear a little bit more about your life, your life in Christ,  and the ways in which he’s been at work and continues to be at work in  your life. Maybe we can start with just your own journey to faith. What  has that been like? How did you come to know Christ?

Dave:

Sure. Well, I grew up in a Christian home, we went to a Baptist  church, my dad was in seminary, so we were involved. I made a profession  of faith at the age of five, but I don’t really remember anything about  it. It was until the age of 15, where I really became more truly  committed to the Lord, where we went to a different church, my dad  became an assistant pastor and had a real vibrant youth group that had a  real healthy program to it. And so particularly the preaching, but,  also, they had a Bible memory program, they had different things you  could do to earn a spot on a missions trip, and it was a really cool  idea. But, anyway, that’s really when my faith took hold for myself, and  the first time I can remember being remorseful over sin or convicted  over sin or really caring about what God said, at the age of 15.

Mike:

It sounds like your involvement in particularly the youth, that you  had peers that were serious about their walk with Christ. Could you talk  a little bit more about that, just in terms of how, and this is  probably a theme that can be extended into the present as well, but just  even then, how instrumental other people were in terms of you growing  in your faith?

Dave:

Yeah. That’s a good question. I would say, to be real honest, I don’t  feel like the relationships, that much, in that Christian subculture,  would necessarily have been something that was really impactful, but it  was definitely the preaching and the teaching and the activities, and I  think that goes in line with their philosophy of ministry, to be honest,  as well. There really wasn’t a specific pastor or mentor at the time.  Down the road, it definitely was.

Mike:

But, at that time, it was more like the preaching of the word, the  other activities that were formative in terms of discipleship-

Dave:

Yeah, I never really remember paying that much attention to even  sermons and stuff before then because it was actually a Wednesday night  thing and they would actually preach to you, like preach to teens, and  you were just like, “Whoa, this guy’s talking to me. He’s challenging  me, it’s not just the adults.”

Mike:

Yeah, it’s like, “Oh, whoa.”

Dave:

And what he’s saying is I’m convicted, I’m wrong, I’m a sinner.  That’s where it really became real. And even in making choices, because  when you move, you start making new friends at the church, and even the  decisions, even sinful decisions or things I would be a part of in  secret, I was very convicted by that after that, like I had to go to  those guys and say, “I can’t be a part of this anymore, I can’t talk  that way, I can’t do that with you.” There was a real shift.

Mike:

Wow. And then move me forward a bit. So, at that point, you took your  faith a lot more seriously, just started walking in the light more.  What happened then?

Dave:

Well, my dad then got a job at a small Bible college, and so I went  to college there because I had free school. Probably did have a choice,  but I didn’t really think about having a choice, like I get free school,  so I might as well go here.

Mike:

It matters down the line, that’s for sure.

Dave:

Yeah, I’m very grateful for no school debt. I went to seminary after  that, to a seminary out here, a Baptist seminary. I think the way you  were taught there and just was expected, I would say, like if you were a  man and you really want to serve God, then the logical next step is you  become a pastor. Once again, it wasn’t explicitly said, but it’s kind  of just assumed in the background, almost.

So, it’s not really like a valuation of your skillset or how you’re  wired, it’s just kind of like that’s … I was a student body chaplain my  senior year and I really enjoyed that, I got to preach and disciple. I  liked that. But, in seminary, it was another really formative time for  me, just personally, in walking with the Lord, it was a very hard time  for me. That’s when I became addicted to pornography, and it was just  this huge gulf of hypocrisy that was, obviously, really hard to deal  with. And I didn’t really know what to do with that, didn’t really have  any resources or how to deal with that in a real good manner.

That, and it was just really difficult, I was working full-time and  going to seminary, and just felt dry as a bone, spiritually, so then I  pulled out of seminary to get involved in a small church replant in  Northeast Philadelphia, called Grace Bible Church, and that was where I  became exposed to reform theology. It’s also where I became roommates to  Michael Gembola, who exposed me to CCEF. And that’s really where a lot  of dynamic change or reoriented thinking completely changed my  understanding of Christianity, I would say.

I realized so much of the reason I was going to seminary was I was  trying to answer bigger questions about myself and about my faith that I  couldn’t really figure out. And then when getting more exposed to  reformed theology, it connected the dots so much for me. And then really  taking David Powlison’s class, the Dynamics of Spiritual Change, it was  like all these light bulbs finally going off in my mind, like, “Okay,  no one else has been able to explain this to me very well, and this guy  is finally making sense. You’re bridging this big gap for me between  your theological training and practical living that no one else has been  able to do for me. It’s always been this … it doesn’t make any sense to  me.”

Mike:

Like, “How can I know so much or know all these things and, yet, it  not touch down in my day-to-day life or it not seem to have an impact?”

Dave:

Exactly. And even why do I sin? What’s the motivations? What are the  bigger, deeper reasons? My background, I had a counseling minor, and it  was just very much more counseling-based, or you just slap a verse on it  and go behave better, and that clearly didn’t work in my personal life.  And, obviously, change is very slow, too, but that’s where the  reorienting, the recalibrating began.

Mike:

Can you talk about that? You talked about the huge shift that took  place as you moved to Philly, you got involved at this new church, got  exposed to CCEF. To the extent that you feel free to share about just  the ways in which that started to change you, personally. Bridge that  gap that you were talking about.

Dave:

Yeah, I think I was in a very healthy church culture there, where the  pastors were very open about their own sins and failings, which I’d  never ever heard that before. One of my goals of being a pastor was  being the expert, not struggling with sin. I was looking to reach this  level where it wasn’t a problem anymore, that really was, I thought,  able to attain, like that’s why I’m getting all this training. And these  guys were not that way at all, and it was so refreshing and so  humbling, even from the pulpit confessing their own sins and their  failings, and I’d never heard that anywhere before. And so that was  huge. And just myself being that way more and more.

And there were, clearly, ups and downs. I probably, honestly, take it  for granted more than I should, now that I’ve been in that mentality or  that theological wavelength for probably 10, 12 years, but you do take  it for granted. I even would struggle because of my seminary training  and own personal study, trying to wrestle with, “In a sermon, you got to  tell me something to do because that’s what we’re supposed to be about.  We just got to get something done. This can’t be a sermon, you can’t  just praise God and leave it like that,” stuff like that.

It’s really hard, when you’ve heard it one way your whole life,  everything was emphasized on the commands, you preach the commands; the  commands, you obey. It’s just drilled into you, and your position in  Christ, your identity, all the promises of God, they don’t have any  everyday effect on your life. Your conversion and you’re going to  heaven, but everything in between is just sit down and try to grind it  out, and that was clearly not working for me.

Mike:

Yeah, nor anyone, for that matter, right?

Any of us who have had similar chunks of life like that, it’s just  this treadmill that it feels like you simply can’t get off of, and it’s a  very lonely experience, too, if you can’t be transparent, you’re just  trying to grind it out, as you say.

Dave:

Yeah. That’s a good way to describe my seminary experience, too, is  very lonely, which is not a good thing, so that’s another reason why I  got involved in the church I did and was very active, it was like my  family. My family lives in Minnesota, so they were really my family out  here. So, it’s the theology and then the relationships and valuing  deeper friendships based on Jesus and even learning as you go, as we all  do, about how that works.

Mike:

Yeah. And you highlighted, too, the importance, it sounds like, of  identity in Christ, like your position in him is something that just  captured you in a new way. Could you talk more about that?

Dave:

Sure. A specific, I think, a helpful angle that I don’t know if I  hear a lot, or just for me, was I realized in college, in seminary, I  had a dad who was trying to be godly, who was very busy, hectic, trying  to serve God, but I saw, clearly, his failings and his weakness and  would be, “Well, I don’t want to be like that,” or whatever. So, then I  would bounce to the next example, next teacher, it’s John Piper, it’s  this next person, like, “I just want to emulate that person” or “They  have it all together,” or whatever.

It was actually an addictions class we were doing for my church then,  where it finally clicked to me, it was really a revelation about what  I’m looking for in all these other spiritual leaders is I’m looking for  Jesus, and they are not Jesus, not even close. And that was incredibly  liberating. So, why are you holding these guys up on a pedestal or why  are you obsessed by them or why are you striving for that? Once you find  a failing or a weakness, “No, they’re not it,” so I’d go to the next  one, like you’re really looking for Jesus.

And that was huge for me. I am totally out of the loop of who’s the  greatest and latest theologian and speakers anymore – I don’t really  care. Maybe it’s too extreme the other way, but I know there’s only one  perfect man that I get to follow and serve, and that’s Jesus. That was a  huge light bulb moment for me.

Mike:

Yeah, because there’s no power … you see someone and you try to  emulate them, but there’s no power source there, there’s no way to do  it, other than just striving, but, with Jesus, he’s given us a new  heart, and he’s given us his spirit, so he enables us by his grace to  grow up into him.

Dave:

Yeah, amen.

Mike:

Maybe a little more, you were talking earlier about how much of life  was just do the next thing, do it right, a more behavioristic approach.  Again, in this transition and involvement in your church and exposure to  CCEF, can you talk about maybe ways in which you started to understand  better the heart behind some of your sin patterns, whether it’s related,  as you were saying, to pornography or other things, like things that  are beneath the surface and that issue forth in these things?

Dave:

Yeah. There was definitely learning and understanding that, even  seeing sin patterns or times when I was weakest. Going back to what  you’re saying, the heart issue, and the other thing even what I was  looking for maybe with a mentor or in other relationships that only  Jesus can fulfill, too, and I think that’s a big part of the lust  escapism as well and that you don’t even realize that there is a real  spiritual component, or an intimacy component that you’re looking for  that you don’t even realize. The world would just say it’s just  biological or whatever, say that it’s just this scientific desire  almost, and it’s not. You’re looking for belonging and intimacy, or not  being alone, or someone to truly understand me and truly know me. That  only comes, ultimately, from Jesus and from his Spirit, and it doesn’t  have to be contingent on all the things that our world is, about whether  you have conflict with the relationship with my wife or with  difficulties … the constant of Christ is there, unlike anything else.

Mike:

Yeah. These other places can be very alluring, but they’re  counterfeit, counterfeit intimacy, we’re talking about. So, you’re just  highlighting this solid rock-ness of Christ, in terms of your walk.

Dave:

Yeah, that’s been a huge first for me. I forget the exact reference,  the verse about where Jesus is the rock, where the winds come and the  rains come and they try to blow the house, and the first house that  isn’t on the good foundation gets just wiped away, but the house that’s  on the rock of Christ can stand. I mean that’s a huge verse and  principle for my life as well, for a lot of things of when life is very  tough or very stressful or difficult, my life is built on the rock of  Christ.

Mike:

Amen. Can you talk a little bit about both, whether it’s in periods  of time in your life when you’ve been suffering or struggling with sin,  how people ministered to you? What have been some helpful ways people  have ministered to you or spoken into your life, and maybe ways in which  this really wasn’t that helpful and here’s why?

Dave:

Yes. I’m trying to think of specific instances. Okay, I’ll give a  real positive one. Recently, in the past year, with the pandemic, my  wife got deployed, she’s in the military, we have a five-year-old son,  and it’s incredibly terrifying to try to navigate all that, working  full-time with a son at home without any help. Definitely the most  overwhelming experience I’ve had in my life.

My actual father, I had an amazing time with him once, where he  shared a verse for me from Isaiah that was just super encouraging to me,  and it was just so refreshing to my soul and it was exactly what I  needed, and it was just a really amazing experience, especially as a  father and a son. I would say I never, that I can recall, had something  like that with him before. He’s a teacher by nature, so that’s a  blessing and a curse because sometimes he can get into teacher mode and  just keep rambling, and it’s not super helpful. But this was nothing  like that, and it was just like, “This verse really helped me in a  horrible time where I couldn’t sleep,” this is my dad saying this, “this  was a verse,” and he’s very musical, he made a song about it.

Mike:

Wow.

Dave:

Yeah, he’s really talented with music. So, it was immensely personal  to him, this verse, and then he was sharing it to me in a time that was a  similar season of real immense suffering for me. That was super  powerful. I was just kind of blown away. Even the timing of it,  everything was all the Spirit, all the Lord that did that, to be able to  connect when we did in a busy day. That was amazing.

Mike:

Do you remember what the substance of the verse was in terms of what he was sharing?

Dave:

Of course, I can’t. It was something to the effect of the Lord will  fight for you or is on your side, or something. It was just one little  blurb of he’s … maybe I’m screwing it up, I have no idea. But he’s for  you and not against you, and he’s in the midst of you with your trouble,  he’s there with you. So, it was really powerful.

Mike:

That’s neat. As you said, out of his own struggles or suffering and  how the Lord ministered to him, it’s kind of the overflow of that.

Dave:

Yeah, I never heard that story before, either. I never knew that he  went through this, I never knew he responded like that, honestly, like  clinging on to a verse like that that was such a lifeline for him. So,  it was really awesome.

Mike:

Yeah, so it was very personal in that sense to him, not just, as you  said, a teaching moment, but something that he’s saying, “This is how  the Lord met me, and maybe this would be helpful to you as well.”

Dave:

Yeah.

Mike:

Can you talk about other ways in which the Lord met you during your  wife’s deployment? Because I remember you, at times in prayer, meeting  at CCEF, talking about the challenges of that, of course, so can you  talk a little bit more about that in terms of just how God has met you,  what other scriptures came alive?

Dave:

I’m trying to think here. He met me a lot through music at that time,  I would say a lot of worship music that I’m not normally big into that.  With music that we would sing at church, we would do it remotely, but I  would make a playlist of songs I hadn’t heard before and I would play  them over and over, and I would say those are the most encouraging  things. I would get very emotional, oftentimes, with them and weep, and  even have that space to do that was really healthy. So, off the top of  my head, that’s what sticks out more than any specific scripture. That  was the medium that I was needing at the time.

Mike:

Yeah. You’re right, God meets us where we are, and that can be  specifically something from scripture, it can be a word from another  person, as it was, your example from your dad, or he uses music that’s  oriented to him as well.

Dave:

Yeah, well, that’s in line with the Psalms and how much David spoke  truths and promises to himself through that, and it’s very powerful. And  I was going to counseling at CCEF through it, and that was a huge  lifeline, I don’t think I could have done it without it, that was just a  huge blessing to have that. I was just always so encouraged after every  session, and this counselor was very gifted and skilled. That really  made a huge difference. In connecting, also, what we’re talking about,  the themes of sin and suffering, I was clearly initially seeing them  intertwined and seamless, almost for me like experiencing meant  suffering, and then reacting sinfully to my son and to our dogs or just  life, just getting angry and just freaking out because I don’t know what  to do. I don’t know, maybe I’m getting a little sidetracked there.

Mike:

No, that’s-

Dave:

With that, horrified how I was reacting, I’m not normally that type  of person at all, and then, “I need to get counseling right now, I need  some help outside of myself. There is no way I can do this on my own.”  So, that desperation, too, forcing me, almost, to go get help.

Mike:

Yeah, just highlighting that in the midst of immense … that was  immense suffering and overwhelming kind of thing, essentially, to just  be thrust into single parenting and full-time at work, in the midst of a  pandemic. That’s heavy-duty weight on you.

Dave:

Yeah, it was all of the things that weren’t helpful, not from a  Christian standpoint, but from just the military standpoint of all these  lists of what you should do when your spouse is deployed and it’s like,  “Get as much help as possible. Hang out with as many people as  possible.” I can’t do any of that. I’m isolated in my house because of  pandemic, which is so …

Mike:

Yeah, the very things that-

Dave:

Yeah, all the stuff you’re supposed to do to cope, you cannot do.

Mike:

Which adds another layer of suffering and frustration.

Dave:

Absolutely.

Mike:

Yeah. What do you think you’ve learned during this time? What has God  been teaching you just about yourself, about being a dad? What are you  learning?

Dave:

That’s a great question. I think it goes back to my background, but  I’m expanding into all our backgrounds of very naturally works-based  righteousness, I think. I can’t really be right like that, I can’t just  earn my own way. And, really, maybe this will sound a little  controversial, I don’t know, but just giving myself a lot more grace and  patience and not putting all this extra burden on myself. I was the  oldest of three boys, I’ve always felt like the responsibility of doing  the right thing, being a good example, trying to do the best thing, and  I’ve realized that over years, that’s always been my prerogative, I put a  lot of pressure on myself.

And that’s really wiped away a lot in this pandemic, which I really  thank the Lord for, but I guess that’s proved obvious that I so clearly  can’t … I can barely survive just normal life, putting all these extra  expectations and pressures on myself is just crushing, so I just can’t  do that. That’s also been liberating and just connecting to your  fallenness and your humanness and your weakness. Just do what God’s  called you to do for the day. More often than not, you just don’t have  to keep trying to go above and beyond, unless it’s absolutely necessary.  In this season of life and this pandemic, you’re just going to kill  yourself if you’re trying to do that.

Mike:

Yeah.

Dave:

Hopefully, that answered your question.

Mike:

Yeah. There’s so many things that you just said here that are so  helpful, Dave. Just the idea of basic daily faithfulness, what has God  called me to today in the very tiny tasks, as opposed to here’s my big  to-do list for the day, which usually gets torn to shreds. So, that’s  one thing that just really stood out to me. It almost seems like it’s  just this posture of receiving the day the Lord gives, rather than  striving to make it a certain way.

Dave:

Yes. We have to be careful, part of it is good. I’m the accountant  here at CCEF, part of the way I’m wired and my personality is to get  things done very accurately and very boom, boom, boom, and that’s great.

Mike:

Yes, we’re very thankful about that.

Dave:

Once again, going back to beating myself up, I’m wired a specific way  that’s gifted me and skilled me, but when that spills into … or so  much, I would say, even before the pandemic, of just trying to control  everything and get very annoyed when my four-year-old son is acting up  or when this happens because I’m not in control, I can’t just balance  it, like balance a QuickBooks. That’s really been sanded off the rough  edges. At any time, my five-year-old could come through this door right  now because he’s downstairs, so that’s been that way for a year, and  that whittles away, at least for me, a lot of attempts at control.  That’s just the way it is.

Praise God I can be with him, praise God that it’s been, actually, a  really big blessing to have him at home overall, and he really enjoys  having time with mama and papa. That attitude, and that’s really been  the Lord shifting, and especially, I would say, going through the  deployment and how hard that was, and coming out, just more grateful  about just those things, instead of being annoyed. I still get annoyed  sometimes, but just much more, “This is how it is and that’s okay,” and  I’m going to be interrupted, I’m going to have all this stuff that  normally, before the pandemic, would have been really obnoxious to me,  and that’s my life right now and God give me enough grace to get through  it. The sense of control or attempt to control, thankfully, has really  kind of gone away.

I even notice in the way I talk with my wife, oftentimes, overall,  just much more patient and understanding. That’s probably a lot of her  coming back and how difficult it is to do life without her. Even when we  do get in arguments or spats, to just, “I forgive you, I’m sorry, I do  not want to fight,” where probably, in the past, it’d be more willing to  put up my dukes and go at it for a few more sentences or paragraphs or  whatever. No, it’s just not worth it, life is too short, it is not worth  doing that over something just stupid, whatever it is. Usually, it’s  something stupid.

Mike:

You can make small things very big things.

Dave:

Yes. So, I’m very grateful for that. It’s probably an overarching theme that I have learned this past year with the pandemic.

Mike:

Yeah, that’s really amazing to hear. You talked about how when you  have a high standard for yourself or a performance standard, it’s easy  to be very self-critical, and then it’s very easy to be critical of  others. And you’re right, we tend to ratchet up control. When it’s all  up to us, then we got to make it happen, and it has to happen my way,  and so you’re just highlighting how the Lord has been, I liked your  word, sanding that, this rough block of wood, sanding you over time.

Dave:

And I’ve seen that in my parents’ marriage, and my dad really has,  more and more, for many years now, expressed how grateful he is for my  mom, and just seeing that over the decades, the sanding of their  marriage, the refining, and it’s been great to see. But I think more  often what it takes is decades, and not saying I won’t revert any time  soon, but I just feel like the sanding has been a lot quicker because of  the circumstances. Technically, my wife could still be deployed any  time, so just not assuming that life will just be peachy in the same way  it’s always been.

Mike:

Yeah. I mean there’s a lot that we take for granted, whether it’s the  people around us, or I plug X, Y and Z into this equation, this is  what’s going to come out, suffering doesn’t work like that. And you just  highlighted how really the both end of suffering, you saw it bring an  eruption of things from your heart, but it was also the means that God  used to reveal himself to you in deeper ways that have resulted in just  these incredible changes.

So, Dave, you really highlighted an amazing way in which your dad  ministered to you in this really hard season. Have there been times  where others didn’t minister to you well in a season of suffering, or  you yourself didn’t minister to someone helpfully in a season of their  suffering? Either of those would be possibilities.

Dave:

Yeah, that’s a great question. I think I’ll park on when I’ve failed  at ministering to suffering people in church. Definitely, years ago, and  even really probably being not as exposed to CCEF material or their  approach to ministry, I emphasized the exhortation or really challenging  people or confronting them and thinking it was the right thing to do,  or just very aggressive with that, which I’m not completely oblivious to  how that could hurt them or what their mental/spiritual state is at the  time, or I need to exhort this person, so they’re going to get  exhorted.

Mike:

“This is what I think they need.”

Dave:

Yeah. And really almost wearing it as a badge of honor, that’s my  spiritual gift of exhortation. And, sometimes, it might have been, but,  most of the times, it was not very helpful, I don’t think. And learning  that through being, now this is my second small group I’ve led or  co-lead, and you really learn a lot through doing that and, at least for  me, how that works. And the emphasis on the patience of God and being  patient with the people you’re shepherding, that just cannot be  overemphasized, versus maybe my background, or going back to what I  talked about, experts or pastors that were very exhortational and very  powerful, and I think that they can be and they are, but proclaiming  from the pulpit is very different than just talking to someone in a city  group or even how you approach leading one.

So, that’s definitely been a shift in my thinking and my approach to  people as well. And maybe it’s even at times it’s a little bit too much  the other way, like I don’t want to offend and I don’t want to be too  passive, there’s certain people that you do have to exhort and call them  out, especially if they’re doing something in public or bringing down  the group. Just blasting away with truth that is, no doubt, 100%  theologically accurate, but it’s just not the right time, it’s the worst  time. I’ve just been reading the Bible in a Year plan with the book of  Job, just finished up the book of Job, and that is just the perfect  example of that, of these guys that are saying very theologically  accurate things that just does not apply whatsoever and it’s just  horrible what they’re saying. And those things can coexist at the same  time.

Mike:

Theological orthodoxy or truth, but bad timing and not applied to this particular person and their particular struggles.

Dave:

Yeah, completely oblivious to their suffering, or just automatically  blaming it on sin or all the different ways that Job’s friends did that.  And it’s very awesome that the Bible has such a … I don’t know, Job is  like 42 chapters or something, about all that. It just goes into detail  about can record that – how wrong they were, and they get rebuked at the  end, and Job has to pray for them so God doesn’t smite them.

Mike:

Yeah, it’s very sobering, in terms of just the opportunities that we  have to come alongside people and not wanting to be miserable  counselors, as Job’s friends were.

Dave:

Yeah, that’s well-said.

Mike:

Yeah, and you also highlight something that’s, I think, really  important, too, how it’s hard to have this wisdom in the moment to know  when is it appropriate to speak, and maybe even speak boldly, into  someone’s life, versus lay back and there may be a different way to  handle that. And we could easily ping-pong between the two, like we’re  either too fast and furious, maybe, with regard to bringing something to  bear, or we’re too hesitant, we’re too passive. So, I like what you  said there in terms of that need for balance and for clarity in the  moment in terms of what is most needful for this person right now.

Dave:

Yep. Underlying truth and comfort for me in all of that, too, is that  it’s all God’s grace and mercy that allows us to navigate that, and  even when I do a poor job, for my reaction to be just to lean in and  trust God with what happened, versus my default mode is trying to  decipher what went wrong and how can I fix it. And there’s a part of  that, but trust God and his sovereignty and his kindness and his mercy  to his people, to me and to other people I’m trying to minister to, as  the underlying bedrock for what’s happening, instead of, like you said,  just trying to control the situation one way or the other. Like, “I went  too far this way, so I’m going to swing back the other way.”

Mike:

Yeah, it really takes us back to some of those themes in terms of  performance, control, what do we do when we fail, and if we have a  performance mentality, there’s nowhere to go, but when we fail in  Christ, we are safe, we can run to him, he invites us to bring it into  the light and he’s there, his mercy is rich.

Dave:

Amen.

Mike:

Anything else the Lord’s been showing you in scripture? You  referenced Job in terms of your reading, but anything else that you’ve  been reading in scripture or hearing in sermon series that’s lively,  that the Lord is working into your day-to-day?

Dave:

Let’s see here. Yeah, I’m really grateful, I’ve been doing this Bible  in a Year plan, I’m doing it with my two brothers, my biological  brothers, one’s in Indiana, one’s in Minnesota, so we get to do it  through the app together, and it’s been really enjoyable. It’s done by  Nicky Gumbel, I don’t know if you’re familiar with him, the guy who did  the Alpha course.

Mike:

Yes.

Dave:

He’s a bishop or something in the Anglican church. He has a theme for  the day, so he connects all the different passages together, and that’s  immensely helpful to me, and I think for everybody, versus trying to  just digest random portions of scripture. So, the theme really helps me  orient to what I’m even looking for as I read the Old Testament or the  Psalms, Proverbs, New Testament. So, I’ve really enjoyed that. I’ve done  that once before, a couple years ago, and I’m really thankful to be  doing that again. I usually do it in the mornings, before getting out of  bed.

And I don’t know if there’s anything specific that sticks out. But  it’s just so healthy to get in the Bible every day and see the stories  afresh, I would say, of God’s servants, of Joseph and all the suffering  he went through, and then eventually being put in charge of all of  Egypt, and the arc of Job. I really enjoy the narratives, in particular.  I can relate to them, I guess, immensely. And I just get very  encouraged that God uses really screwed up people, he always has.  Jacob’s family was one of the most dysfunctional families of all time,  and here they were, God’s chosen family. So, it’s unbelievable. So, that  kind of stuff, I really get freshly amazed by that.

Mike:

Yeah. All of us are on a Bible reading plan or probably in Genesis.  It’s interesting, I’m reading the Joseph narrative as well. Even last  night, in terms of he’s in the prison, and he asked the cup bearer to  remember him, and he says, “Sure,” and then two years passes and it’s  like, “Wow, two years.” Sometimes, we just skim over that, but, wow.  We’ve had a very rough year in the pandemic, but two years in the  dungeons. So, just seeing how, wow, God, though in that moment, you  look, “What is God up to? Is he at work?” But he was. But it was a long  season, where, I’m sure, Joseph was wondering, “What’s happening?”

Dave:

Yeah. I agree. Also, in regards to my brothers, this has happened  through the pandemic, I think really the catalyst has been the pandemic,  but we text each other, pretty much every day, that we are praying for  each and ask how we can pray, we share pray requests, and that’s been  really sweet. And even modern technology, being able to text, to do  that, since we live so far apart, that’s been really a big blessing  because, by God’s grace, they’re both believers and want to pursue  Jesus, and so to just have that, that’s a very rare blessing, for sure,  to do that. And even very affectionate in how we communicate more and  more, which it’s a wonderful thing, it’s a very biblical thing, but rare  with men, to be not ashamed of our affection and our love for one  another, which is really awesome.

Mike:

Yeah, that seems to be something that the Lord has just really built  over the course of your life. When we were talking earlier about just  the influences in your teen years, it was much more public ministry in a  sense of the word, but what I hear now, it’s so central, and it’s not  that that isn’t just as central, but relationships with small group  members, with your brothers, it really seems to be God really weaving  your hearts together, and that’s been part of the growth that you’ve  testified to.

Dave:

Yeah, I agree. And to add to that, as I’m thinking about it now,  really God proving his faithfulness in so many ways, it’s kind of  connected to the story of Joseph, too, when it doesn’t, on the surface,  or you don’t, in the day-to-day, feel like he’s being faithful or he’s  providing enough grace, and specifically when it comes to relationships,  and I value the male friendships and have several of them at work, and  then not being able to go to work, and just feeling much more isolation,  the same with not getting together in person with people from city  group, and it’s been very difficult, but at the same time, God has  always provided other avenues, he doesn’t just leave me out on an  island. Unless I, myself, want to be on an island, I guess. But he  provides so many different ways to give us God-centered relationships  when, at least for me, I think, “That’s going to be really difficult” or  “How’s that going to happen? What’s going to happen here?”

Mike:

Yeah. Well, I’m really thankful for the time that we’ve had, Dave. I  really appreciate your honesty, just opening your heart to me and to  those who will listen, so thank you so much for the time.

Dave:

Sure. Thank you.